why I dislike Fords.

One also has to note, buying gas in our local area, we know where to get fuel at the lowest cost. Hauling a trailer cross country, finding competitively prices fuel isn't always feasible.

GON, between discount diesel fuel services like TSD logistics and Gas Buddy Price Heat map that problem only exists if a person doesn't look down the road ahead of time.. I almost always know where I will be buying fuel, before I hit the road.. for instance my pickup holds 92 gallons of diesel, so I know I will probably get fuel in the 600 to 700 mile driving range if pulling the RV or the 1200 to 1500 mile range if unloaded. so. I look ahead on both of the services I just mentioned and generally get the best price on the route I am taking.

 
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I look ahead on both of the services I just mentioned and generally get the best price on the route I am taking.
Same, plus I have the OOIDA fuel card as well. Between TSD and OOIDA, my diesel fuel discount averages $0.60 off retail price. That adds up in a hurry when you put in 75 gallons at a time.

I did this review on the TSD card a few years ago. Everything still applies.

 
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Same, plus I have the OOIDA fuel card as well. Between TSD and OOIDA, my diesel fuel discount averages $0.60 off retail price. That adds up in a hurry when you put in 75 gallons at a time.

I did this review on the TSD card a few years ago. Everything still applies.

worth pointing out that the retail price at chain truck stops is quite a bit higher than the pump price at the regular auto type fuel stations like Racetrac, Wawa, Speedway, Buccees etc. and if you aren't on the Interstate you may not be able to find a participating truck stop location that participates in the discount card. I've hit a couple Buccees already where it was cheaper than using my discount card at the Love's across the street.

When I went to Alaska, I used the old style highways from Missouri to Montana, then all the way to Alaska, then all the way back to the US thru N Dakota and across US 2 to the Mackinac Bridge before I was able to use the discount card again on I 75. so it was Gas Buddy if possible and pay whatever I had to in the real remote places where you don't have any choice..
 
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worth pointing out that the retail price at chain truck stops is quite a bit higher than the pump price at the regular auto type fuel stations like Racetrac, Wawa, Speedway, Buccees etc. and if you aren't on the Interstate you may not be able to find a participating truck stop location that participates in the discount card. I've hit a couple Buccees already where it was cheaper than using my discount card at the Love's across the street.

When I went to Alaska, I used the old style highways from Missouri to Montana, then all the way to Alaska, then all the way back to the US thru N Dakota and across US 2 to the Mackinac Bridge before I was able to use the discount card again on I 75. so it was Gas Buddy if possible and pay whatever I had to in the real remote places where you don't have any choice..
That's a great point. When unhooked or driving off the interstates, I do the same - look for local stations, which are often as cheap if not cheaper than the on-interstate truck stops.
 
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I was thinking about what DNewton
Ford and GM have never, to the best of my understanding, flat-out intentionally cheated to claim a product is something it isn't when it comes to vehicle emissions. Sure, they both have produced some bad quality products, but those are not the same as violating federal law. And in some manner, it wasn't just the Feds that Cummins and VW cheated on; they screwed every single customer that trusted their product to be something it ultimately wasn't.

I've been thinking about this, and started wondering if some sloppy engineers like the Germans can't clean up without cheating, and the worlds largest Independent Diesel Engine manufacturer can't hit the target without cheating what are the chances two American auto companies whose primary business doesn't revolve around the manufacture of diesel engine's actually meet the standards versus the chances they just have not been caught yet? Time will tell.
 
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I was thinking about what DNewton


I've been thinking about this, and started wondering if some sloppy engineers like the Germans can't clean up without cheating, and the worlds largest Independent Diesel Engine manufacturer can't hit the target without cheating what are the chances two American auto companies whose primary business doesn't revolve around the manufacture of diesel engine actually meet the standards versus the chances they just have not been caught yet? Time will tell.
I'm not fluent on the diesel emissions situation-. Pure gut speculation leads me to wonder were these manufacturers holistically cheating or technically cheating. There is a large difference between the two. Kind of like income taxes, if you have a complex tax situation, it is likely easy to technically make a error on the taxes, as simple as rounding down when one should round up. Rounding up or rounding down likely made no material difference in the final tax owed figure, but technically one could be identified as tax cheating. Did the manufacturers truly and willfully publish fake emissions numbers/ statistics? Or is the issue an interpretation of the published standards? I have no idea.

All I know is driving 31 MPH in a 30 MPH makes me a violator of the law- and I received a ticket in Neveda about for years ago for a 1 MPH over the posted speed limit moving violation, with a town that had a zero-tolerance policy. On a good note, I went to court and talked to the county attorney before the trial, and he dropped the charges...
 
I'm not fluent on the diesel emissions situation-. Pure gut speculation leads me to wonder were these manufacturers holistically cheating or technically cheating. There is a large difference between the two. Kind of like income taxes, if you have a complex tax situation, it is likely easy to technically make a error on the taxes, as simple as rounding down when one should round up. Rounding up or rounding down likely made no material difference in the final tax owed figure, but technically one could be identified as tax cheating. Did the manufacturers truly and willfully publish fake emissions numbers/ statistics? Or is the issue an interpretation of the published standards? I have no idea.
In a nutshell, both VW and Cummins created primary and secondary emissions control programs which lied to the EPA when being tested. I'm not up to snuff on the dets of the Cummins story yet, but I can speak to the VW story.

VW wrote programming into their ECMs that essentially ran two different programs; one for passing the test, and one for daily driving (far worse emissions). Typically, vehicles are tested in stationary cells; essentially like a dynamometer for chassis (like you'd see HP and Torque runs). So, when those test systems are running, the cars are stationary and the drive wheels are moving. So it's an easy cheat ... you have the ECM monitor the wheels and various control modules, and then select a program for street or test mode.

Example for VW; a FWD car with diesel engine:

1 - if the front wheels are turning above 10mph, and the rear wheels are not turning at all, it presumes that it's on a "test" bed. The ECM can also monitor if something is hooked up to the OBDII circuits, etc. It uses all these inputs to determine if the vehicle is being "tested" for emissions. So if it determines it's being tested, it then runs the "clean" ECM emissions program. The car won't put out the certified power or have the throttle response that customers want, but the EPA neither cares about or tests the HP and Torque claims; they only care about clean air. So to pass the emissions tests, they run detuned programs based on the fact that the car is in a stationary test mode.

2 - if all wheels are turning and nothing is hooked up to the various module ports, the ECM assumes it's being driven on the street, and will provide the rated HP and torque numbers and throttle response, but it won't make the mandated emissions levels.

Hence, VW purposely purposely cheated by creating two ECM programs loaded into each and every TDI sold; one for passing the emissions tests, and one for daily driving. This wasn't any form of an accident or "technical" cheat. It was a flat out, "we're going to purposely violate the rules" by having two internal engine programs, depending upon whether or not they were being "sniffed" at the tailpipe.


As far as I can tell with Cummins, it was something similar; they installed "defeat devices" which obviously could determine if a "test" was being run. When tested, it ran the "clean" program. When being daily-driven, it would defeat the clean program and revert to a more powerful (but dirty emissions) program. I'm just not up fully on the dets. Because Ram wasn't directly fined or implicated, I would make the presumption that Cummins did this without Ram's knowledge. Otherwise Ram would also be involved directly. Sure - Ram will have to be the service point of contact for the program updates, but I don't think the costs fall upon Ram, at least at this time. And Cummins was doing it for 10 years! (2013 - 2023).

This is what really pisses me off, and why I will never trust Cummins ... (and VW, as they essentially took the "not my fault" approach)
Here is a quote from an article regarding Cummins:
In a statement, Cummins said it did not admit any wrongdoing and that it had no evidence its employees acted in bad faith.
Didn't act in bad faith? Are you flippin' kidding me? Am I supposed to believe that somehow, in some magical way, two programs got written into code, and loaded into 600K vehicle engine ECMs, and it was an innocent accident? An accident that perfectly mated 2 non-dependent ECM programs in such a manner that they can meet the necessary emission limits on one side, and yet also produced HP and torque numbers for the purpose of competitive truck-sales marketing? I'm supposed to be so gullible that I don't think that after hundreds of hours of engine testing, no one noticed this "Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde" program personality? That the engineers and managers at Cummins didn't understand why there were so many lines of code, and such different disparity performance vs emissions? And I'm sure that all the people who signed off the test results had no idea why two ECM programs exist inside the same little black box? As if there was one lone programmer who innocently made a mistake by having two unique programs that just coincidentally ran low emission on one side, and superior HP and torque on the other side, and it was just a lone-wolf fluke mistake?

VW just got caught doing a very similar thing a few years before Cummins was caught. Given that Cummins was doing it for 10 years, I bet they were quietly crapping their pants, fearing the worst. And it happened; they got caught.

Wanna know who really gets screwed? The customer and the investors. Cummins will take a big hit against revenues and write off that $2B in fines and fixes; Cummins won't pay out dividends or buy back stock. Further, that's $2B they won't be able to put into new engine developments, won't purchase new equipment, won't give employee raises, won't develop customer satisfaction campaigns, won't be able to spend on other warranty claims, etc, etc, etc.

***********************

As I said, I cannot tell you why Ford isn't involved with any scandal in this regard. But they sure do have a lot more equipment in the engine bay, and just maybe it's because they don't cheat and therefore need all that stuff to legitimately pass the tests? GM also, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't suffered that fate either. By now the EPA knows about Cummins and VW, so they're probably much more skeptical of ALL diesel certifications. I expect by now the EPA now employs IT/computer programming geeks to hunt down and find this stuff. Either Ford and GM are better at cheating, or just maybe they are better at engineering. Time will tell, but I've got to think the EPA is now actively probing all manner of cheating avenues. They've been fooled twice; they probably have a very sour outlook on being cheated again.



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I wonder where the $1.7B fines go? Does the EPA get all that money, or is it put into the general US treasury funds?
 
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Time will tell, but I've got to think the EPA is now actively probing all manner of cheating avenues.
Hire a competent team of programmers and give them a challenge to find bugs or cheaters. You ever meet a geek who would turn down a good technical challenge?
 
@dnewton3 thanks for the post on the diesel emissions scandal. Your post triggered me to google the scandal, and I was surprised at what I found. Some things we can't comprehend, and this is one of them. How did a group of engineers and leaders choose to cheat the tests. Seems nuts..........
 
Volkswagen commited large scale fraud... and engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct justice.
that is why some of the executives went to prison. They didn't futz around at the edges.

We don't know what Cummins did and we don't know if any other brands are in a regulatory bind that hasn't been announced yet.
I do know Cummins committed to cleaning up their act by 2000 or so, instead of fighting the EPA so I was a bit confused that they admitted they cheated and paid a fine.

I don't think the EPA will ever be able to stop skilled automotive people with computer skills from being able to cheat or workaround the system but the EPA can make it so it is difficult to profit off of it that it gets driven into the dark corners of the industry.

There are two ways to cheat an emissions system.. One is to deprogram / reprogram the ECM, and the other is to simulate the readings .
 
one other thought... combustion process has multiple variables in a engine. you could probably say an infinite amount.. and the only way to provide more power in a diesel engine is to burn more fuel and air.. Keeping in mind high combustion temperatures increase NOx emissions whereas lower combustion temperatures decrease NOx emissions if GM puts out a 6.6 liter diesel engine of around 400 hp and 900 lbs ft of torque, and Cummins puts out a similar sized engine with a similar output how does Ford put out a similar displacement engine and get 500 hp and 1200 lbs ft of torque and meet the same emissions target?
 
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As I understand it, the NOX and CO emissions are counter indicative. As you raise combustion temps, the CO goes down and the NOX goes up. And vice versa; lower temps means CO goes up and NOX comes down. The two gases react in opposite directions. You can't just drop temps and think you're home free.

I don't want to give any indication that I have all the answers; I just spend a lot of time researching stuff I find interesting. There is no way anyone would ever convince me that VW and Cummins (and also MB was caught to a lesser degree), as corporate entities, didn't know what was going on.

I worked at Ford for 16 years, and Carrier for another 16 years; two big companies competing in a world-wide market. I know how big corporations run their engineering protocol. There is ZERO chance of something like these trojan-horse programs getting out into production without a half-dozen managers sign-off signatures along the way. These program criteria had to have engineering managers and electronic program managers at multiple levels. You cannot develop concurrent programs to run the ECM in some back-room vacuum. Engine testing and validation takes thousands of hours of test cell time. Once past the engine test cells, then you put the engines in vehicles and run chassis dyno tests. At a bare minimum you want a product that can "pass" the tests. Well, VW and Cummins were able the pass the tests, via cheating. Not for one second do I think any less than 15-20 engineers and managers knew EXACTLY what was going on. They just didn't think they'd get discovered. Cummins employees didn't act in bad faith? Bovine Scat !!!


The one thing I find interesting is how Cummins got the dual programming past Ram ... Somehow they had to get the Ram chassis to communicate with the engine ECM, and yet not raise any eyebrows at Ram. The conversation may have gone something like this ...

Cummins: We need your vehicle driveline/chassis monitoring system to feed wheelspeed and OBDII data to our ECM.
Ram: Why?
Cummins: No particular reason.
Ram: Seriously, what would that be used for?
Cummins: Don't ask; you don't want to know. (wink)
Ram: Ask what? I never said anything ... (nod)
 
DNewton3 diesels dont produce much CO.. honestly don't know if they even have to control it of if the DOC takes care of it.. the NOx emissions are their big issue..

They already control the particulate matter with the DPF, which is what it is.. I think most of the problems and cheating revolves around NOX control and SCR systems


QUOTE: The one thing I find interesting is how Cummins got the dual programming past Ram ... Somehow they had to get the Ram chassis to communicate with the engine ECM, and yet not raise any eyebrows at Ram. The conversation may have gone something like this ...

The engine is sold to Ram as an incomplete unit.. Ram warrants the engine but Cummins supplies it to them... both have a 35 year working relationship and your guess is as good as mine who knows what did it to who and who is going to exercise plausible deniability.

. funny thing about a Cummins ECM communicating with a body controller is the engine ECM can control everything the engine and emissions does without any input from the body except a ignition source , throttle and emissions related data The body controller just does the chassis manufacturer stuff like transmission, ABS, traction control etc using data supplied fro variety of sensors... )

honestly all you need to start one of these engines if you were to disconnect the chassis harness from the engine ECM is an ignition source, and a positive and negative suplply... so it is possible Cummins has it all on themselves. I dont know if they certify the engine or Ram does, but close look at my Cummins and it has a PentaStar logon on the rocker cover.
 
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one other thought... combustion process has multiple variables in a engine. you could probably say an infinite amount.. and the only way to provide more power in a diesel engine is to burn more fuel and air.. Keeping in mind high combustion temperatures increase NOx emissions whereas lower combustion temperatures decrease NOx emissions if GM puts out a 6.6 liter diesel engine of around 400 hp and 900 lbs ft of torque, and Cummins puts out a similar sized engine with a similar output how does Ford put out a similar displacement engine and get 500 hp and 1200 lbs ft of torque and meet the same emissions target?
I would imagine that it is simply that whatever test they are running to test emissions doesn't require the engine to output its full power.
 
DNewton3 diesels dont produce much CO.. honestly don't know if they even have to control it of if the DOC takes care of it.. the NOx emissions are their big issue..

They already control the particulate matter with the DPF, which is what it is.. I think most of the problems and cheating revolves around NOX control and SCR systems


QUOTE: The one thing I find interesting is how Cummins got the dual programming past Ram ... Somehow they had to get the Ram chassis to communicate with the engine ECM, and yet not raise any eyebrows at Ram. The conversation may have gone something like this ...

The engine is sold to Ram as an incomplete unit.. Ram warrants the engine but Cummins supplies it to them... both have a 35 year working relationship and your guess is as good as mine who knows what did it to who and who is going to exercise plausible deniability.

. funny thing about a Cummins ECM communicating with a body controller is the engine ECM can control everything the engine and emissions does without any input from the body except a ignition source , throttle and emissions related data The body controller just does the chassis manufacturer stuff like transmission, ABS, traction control etc using data supplied fro variety of sensors... )

honestly all you need to start one of these engines if you were to disconnect the chassis harness from the engine ECM is an ignition source, and a positive and negative suplply... so it is possible Cummins has it all on themselves. I dont know if they certify the engine or Ram does, but close look at my Cummins and it has a PentaStar logon on the rocker cover.
You make good points. And I get what you're saying; the engine can run as a stand-alone unit. OK; but that doesn't help me understand how the engine knows when to cheat and when not to cheat.

Let me clarify my point, as I probably did a poor job of it.

For this Cummins scandal to occur, there are some "Cummins installed illegal defeat devices" (quoting the EPA statement) present. Most likely these would be controlled electronically (unlikely to be solely mechanical). So there must be some manner of duality in the programming of the ECM. Somehow, in some manner, the ECM has to know when to pass a low-emissions requirement (pass the formal government-administered test in real time), but also know when to defeat those parameters and run "normally" (and dirty) on the street. So how does the ECM know when to apply the defeat devices?

What I cannot conceive is how that duality would take place ONLY by the engine. As you said, the engine is a stand-alone unit. The emissions test isn't done on an engine stand, is it? (I'm not being a smart-alec; I'm asking for clarification). To me, the whole vehicle has to be certified. That means the engine and ALL the emissions control components (SCR, DPF, Cat-converter) have to work in harmony along with the engine to meet the demands of passing the test. So at some point, the engine must need some manner of input from the chassis to know whether it's on a chassis dyno or a city street. When I saw pictures of the VW scandal, the VW cars were on chassis dynos with the emissions test equipment hooked up to various control modules as well as a sniffer in the tailpipe. You can't do all that on an engine stand; it HAS to be done with a fully assembled vehicle sitting next to test equipment.

So, again, how did Cummins sneak this past Ram? If this is solely on Cummins, how did the ECM know when to deactivate the defeat devices for the test, but not when normally driving??? In some manner, there has to be some info going from the chassis to the ECM telling it what's going on around the chassis. And if this is true, then how could Ram not have suspected something?

As I said, I'm curious about the inner workings of the scandal. But it does not change my ultimate opinion; VW and Cummins are big fat cheaters and I want nothing to do with them. These are not called scandals because they were accidental; these were deliberate, intentional acts to defraud the government and the people.

"Oops - mea culpa, bro. We didn't mean to write code and install it into the ECM so it knows how and when to cheat on the emissions test; it just sorta happened by accident" said the Cummins engineering manager.

Nah - I ain't buying it.



 
So, again, how did Cummins sneak this past Ram?

Nah - I ain't buying it.



Sir Isaac , if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.. Ram has to have some knowledge because as you said, how could they not.
In the end I would think FCA did all the certifications, not Cummins.

it has been said that if you aint cheating, you aint trying.
 
Interesting breakdown of the current 6.7 PowerStroke...


I've seen that video before.
One man's opinion does not make for a scientific conclusion.

I will limit my comments to normal "stock" engines. I exclude the topic of racing, "tuned" or performance built engines.

There are, by now, probably a million or more 6.7L PSDs on the road.
Oil starvation isn't a common problem; he's making a mountain out of a molehill.
He's talking about "cold start up", as if every single start of the engine is dry. Has he never heard of an ADBV in a filter? While his point might have some validity after an OCI, it's moot any other time. The engine doesn't drain down after every stop cycle. He's delusional in this regard.

Another example of his "bias" gone awry ...
He complains about the roller lifters, and mentions the needle bearings. Then he talks about "heavy spring pressure". All this as he's referring to "performance" applications (his own words).
Q: So just what the heck does this topic have to do with a diesel engine that typically only sees 2500rpm or less???
A: NOT A DARN THING !
Diesel valve spring pressures are typically some of the lowest in ICE applications, because the valve actuation rate of "ramp" is very mild contrasted to high-revving engines with aggressive cam lobes. Needle bearings are used in roller lifters in about a bazillion engine applications. He advocates for bushings instead of needle bearings. If bushings were "better", why would the OEMs not walk away from the MUCH more expensive needle bearings in favor of cheaper bushings? Because the reality is that needle bearings ARE better. I can't even understand where he comes off with this garbage topic.

He's actively looking to make derogatory notes where the claimed root cause doesn't actually exist. This is a guy who's made a career of engine building, primarily performance engines, and he's applying his (flawed) logic to diesel engines. He makes money by making "improvements", even if those improvements really aren't upgrades that have any real merit in the average garage.

Nah - I don't give his opinion any merit.
 
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I've seen that video before.
One man's opinion does not make for a scientific conclusion.



Nah - I don't give his opinion any merit.

I know what you mean. I'm not a Ford fan but I believe you underestimated six point seven production.. I think it is closer to 2 million. :)
for the most part whatever nonsense is spouted on the video I'm not going to watch ..
I dislike current Ford trucks because they make stuff difficult to work on..
which is opposite of the old days when they were a charm.. I liked twin I beam and 300 sixes..
other than that the darn things are pretty good vehicles.
 
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