why I dislike Fords.

[MSCH]

feel free to disagree.
they make darn good trucks, they are more popular than any other brand
but they are a royal PITA to work on.

I just saw a friend of mine yesterday, hadn't seen him in 35 years.. met up to eat.
while there he asks me if I know a good place to change his oil
he has an 11 F250 w 6.7 Powerstroke.
I said to him lets just do it at my house .
pick up 3.5 gallons of Rotella and a filter.
pop the hood and say WTF,,,
Fords better idea, cram 12 pounds of crap in a 10 pound bag.
I just changed the water pump, belt and thermostat on my Cummins, not saying it was easy
but the Ford looks impossible. oil change wasn't hard..

then he asks me if I have an electricl tester... yeah.
what do you want to check..
apparently his air bag compressor wont function,
there is an AUX plug under the rear seat, has a typical cigarette lighter receptacle
I test for 12v, aren't any...

ask him if this is a factory installation, he isn't sure but it sure looks factory..
ask him where the fuse block is..
he doesn't know.
so we go on a Where is Waldo search..
finally locate a main fuse panel behind the right side kick panel by the passenger seat.
almost impossible to see.
go in there and test what looks like 100 fuses with my test light, all good.

look some more, Ford has another breaker box under the hood, basicaly by the master cylinder.
same crap,, hard to get at. test all the fuses, all good.
find owners manual, good old Ford just numbers the fuses, so you have to look in several places in the book to figure out which is which.. which never led to a result

long story is never did figure it out but said to myself once one of the trucks starts to get messed up
best advice would be to get rid of it as labor time working on one of them would probably be a killer.,

 

[Wayne]

I have never owned a Ford, but have looked under the hood of a few and had friends who have owned them. They seem to be very difficult to work on, almost no regard for the mechanic. When you see shops remove the entire cab to get at the engine, you know there is something wrong in the design philosophy. The Dodge and Chevy have cavernous engine compartments with room to maneuver and get at things. Plus, I can't forgive Ford for the 6.0L and 6.4L debacles. They cost their customers untold millions in repair bills for Ford's stupidity.

 

[AutoMechanic]

I love Ford for their reliability and looks but can’t stand to work on them. I feel sorry for Ford mechanics. Every manufacturer has good and bad designs but majority of Fords are bad designs for engine stuff. I have two of them so I know lol.

 

[spasm3]

Ford lost me with aluminum beds. Granted there is some Al on my truck , tailgate, maybe hood. but not the bed.

 

[Wayne]

Ford lost me with aluminum beds. Granted there is some Al on my truck , tailgate, maybe hood. but not the bed.

I wonder how they hold up when the truck isn't a grocery getter?

 

[Azjeff]

I wonder how they hold up when the truck isn't a grocery getter?

They don't like ladder racks. My daughter-in-law's dad is a big framing contractor and a Ford guy. They have over 100 trucks and are upgrading the fleet regularly. He told me the beds were coming apart somewhere (cracking?) from the rack with whatever is usually on it. I'm sure they found a solution because he won't run GM or Dodge.

 

[GON]

I currently have thee F350s:
2002 F340 Crew Cab V10 gas 4.3 rear end SRW
2015 F350 Super Cab 6.2L V8 SRW
2019 F350 Crew Cab 6.7 diesel DRW

Fully concur with @MSCH that Ford does a lot of things with their later model Super Dutys that make service a pain and possibly unnecessary. The fuse issue brought up is a perfect example. The smallest fuses known to be used in any vehicle, and a lot of them, making troubles even bigger troubles. Ford is now using micro double lead fuses in their Super Dutys, making an already tough service design even tougher.

On a plus note with Super Dutys being such big sellers and they seem to physically last a long time, after market and used parts seem to have good availability. For OEM parts, Ford is notorious for ending part runs early, often resulting in OEM parts being discontinued while their may still be a need.

I would be a 100 percent Chevy truck guy except GM has used the worse brake pipe and fuel pipe when it comes to rusting. The issue is very easy to be prevent, as Mercedes, VW, Volvo, BMW have prevented since the mid 1970s. Yet GM seems to not car about rotting brake pipe, a likely $8 USD fix per vehicle. The rotting brake brake that GM refuses to fix is what converted by from a Chevy truck owner to a Ford truck owner.

 

[dnewton3]

We need to be careful and compare apples to apples, etc. It's not all Fords; it's only certain Fords.

Yes, the I-6 of the Cummins is going to have a bit more room inside the engine bay to work on vs. the 6.7L PSD. There is a TON of stuff crammed into the Ford 6.7L PSD front end. But that same truck with the old 6.2L gasser or the new 7.3L/6.8L gasser engines has a ton of room to work on stuff. It's not an issue with the truck being a Ford; it's an issue of all the components being associated with the modern diesel.

It's not just Fords; the other brands have issues too. The current 6.7L Cummins is no picnic relative to the older 12v 5.9L. The current gen Dmax is more complicated than the older ones also.

I had a love/hate relationship with my Chevy Dmax; loved it for the first nine years (super reliable), then hated it the last three years (the amount of failures was mind-boggling in those last 36 months). The Dmax design in particular is a PITB because to change the water pump, you have to remove the harmonic dampener; a royal pain. All just because of ONE water pump bolt they decided to hide behind the dampener. The Dmax also a turbo oil return line gasket that likes to leak; it's conveniently under the turbo in the back, and you have to disconnect the up-pipes to get to it (and they are renowned to break the bolts off when taking the turbo out ) ...

When I got rid of the Dmax, I realized I'm done with modern diesels; too much stuff in the way for my tolerance. Dual cooling loops; complex EGR systems; SCR systems; etc etc etc ... Just way too much stuff under hood for me to want to deal with. But the same mentality goes to cars for me. I recently bought a Lexus ES350, simply because the Lexus has a reasonably simple 3.5L naturally aspirated v-6; no turbos getting in the way with all their complicated plumbing, etc.

I have a close friend who has had both GM and Ford diesels over the last two decades. He's had Fords the last several times. He trades them in when they approach the 100k mile warranty limit. Not a bad idea, as long as you can afford it (and he can).

 

[dnewton3]

I would be a 100 percent Chevy truck guy except GM has used the worse brake pipe and fuel pipe when it comes to rusting. The issue is very easy to be prevent, as Mercedes, VW, Volvo, BMW have prevented since the mid 1970s. Yet GM seems to not car about rotting brake pipe, a likely $8 USD fix per vehicle. The rotting brake brake that GM refuses to fix is what converted by from a Chevy truck owner to a Ford truck owner.

Oh, the horror stories I could tell about corrosion and my 2006 LBZ Dmax truck .... this all started in the 9th year of owning it:
- brake lines failed when pulling a trailer (just literally burst a hole and went to the floor as I was approaching a stoplight, and had it not been for the electric trailer brake manual control, I would have rear ended some vehicles)
- tranny lines had to be replaced; seeping right through the metal lines at the junctions
- power steering lines had to be replaced; started seeping hydroboost fluid
- fuel cooler had to be replaced; started leaking fuel
- fuel lines had to be replaced; though they weren't leaking, they were BADLY corroded and I didn't want to be stranded somewhere when they did decide to finally pop open
- frame so badly rusted that when I took the bed off to chip and scrape the rust off so I could POR-15 the rails, I was able to get about 3+ gallons of rust swept off the floor of the barn
- ABS unit had to be replaced because the corrosion of the failing screws allowed moisture to enter into the control circuitry and subsequently ruin the module
- the rear AAM 11.5" diff corroded so badly that about 50% of the metal thickness was gone in the main housing area (I drilled a hole to measure it!)
- the underside door and rocker areas were about ready to "pop"

All this in 12 years, but only 55k miles of use. I loved that Dmax/Alli combo, but the rest of the truck was a nightmare after a decade; it just completely corroded in about every conceivable manner. And yet people make fun of Fords for rusting? Gimme a break ...

 

[dnewton3]

Just for reference of the corrosion I refer to on my differential housing and frame ...
The rust just literally was falling off, and easily chipped away by pecking at it with a screwdriver ...

Differential:
Look at the second photo; the gap of metal which chipped off is subsequently measured in the third photo at slightly more than .260"
Look at the fourth photo; that's where I kept on chipping away at the metal. It was like peeling an onion; the more you peeled, the more that just fell off in your hands. The diff housing nominal thickness was about .500", and in some areas it had lost approximately 50% thickness due to rust! Ya think maybe that might just affect the strength of the rear diff housing ????????

Frame:
The pic of the frame was AFTER I scrapped all the loose stuff off. Didn't get a picture of it, but it filled about 60-70% of a 5 gallon bucket. I did have a pic of the rusted brake lines on my old phone, but I forgot to port the photos into the cloud before I got rid of that old phone (prior to my days of now having an Iphone with Icloud).

 

[MSCH]

what Newton said about the 7.3 gas Fords with the 10 speed appeals to me too.
if I get another HD truck I'm pretty sure its going to be one of those gassers.

diesels aren't really cost effective, you have to rationalize them from a performance standpoint
but now that there is something out there gasoline powered that looks like it will do the job
I'd certainly go for one of those if I was in the market.

I don't know what the deal is with their brake lines, but my 2000 Chevy K3500 also had a brake line rust out.
since it spent the first 8 years of it's life in Michigan I sort of expected rust
but not that.

 

[Wayne]

@dnewton3 those you had told me about the severe rust on the differential, but I had never seen the pictures. WOW, I've never seen anything like that. Come clean with us, you sprayed it with salt mist every day to see if you could corrode a hole in the diff.

My Dad's 2002 Duramax has 75k miles and is absolutely pristine, but it almost never gets driven in the winter. My Duramax has seen salt one time and I spent about an hour at the car wash the next day making sure I got it all off. It's still completely rust free and I plan on keeping it that way.

Modern diesels are a potential maintenance pain, but our trailer's GVW is too much for a gasser and if you buy a gasser dually, don't plan on getting much at resell, as there is little demand for them. You wanna play, you gotta pay.

 

[MSCH]

the biggest issue with the modern diesels is the emissions systems.
These have improved as they have in production 15 years now but its still the biggest potential problem area.

the truck I was talking about in the first post is a 2011.. it has a good 250k on it.. it seems like it runs good
but since its a Michigan truck and my bud lives on a dirt road and he isn't what you'd call a maintenance freak
it looks pretty bad underneath.

 

[dnewton3]

Certainly diesel trucks make a lot of sense in the right situations. For one thing, if you drive them far enough on an annual basis, the fuel savings can really help offset the expense. And certainly there are loads that simply exceed the capabilities which gassers can haul, so diesel is a must past a certain point.

But for me, given my max loads (typically 10,000 lbs or less) and low annual use (about 3k miles a year these days), a diesel doesn't make sense for me. The fuel savings would make the ROI break-even point just way, way too far out for me. Add in the complexity of potential future repairs, along with the added costs of diesel maintenance (filters and oils), I just cannot justify a diesel truck. My emotions urge me to want one, but my brain tells me I don't need one. Logic says keep the gaser; it does fine.

On the plus side, both diesel and gas trucks have come so very far; the capabilities dwarf what was available just a decade ago. We should be happy with these 1st-world problems of too much power and too much capacity!

 

[dnewton3]

@dnewton3 those you had told me about the severe rust on the differential, but I had never seen the pictures. WOW, I've never seen anything like that. Come clean with us, you sprayed it with salt mist every day to see if you could corrode a hole in the diff.

I wish it were that easily explained. I have no ability to describe how it happened other than "Indiana winters" and salt.

I have owned a few Ford vehicles which we put over 250k miles on (Grand Marquis, F250, etc); yes, they had body rust. They may not have been pretty, but they were still a solid driving vehicle.

But never in my life have I seen such a total failure of corrosion protection as with that 2006 GM truck. Like I said, for 9 years it was awesome and I loved it. But in the 10th-12th years, it just went downhill fast; system after system just started failing from corrosion. Just when I thought it would end, another failure sprung up, costing hundreds of dollars and downtime. It was maddening.

Oh - I forgot to mention that at around 35k miles, the front left ABS sensor started acting up. After some insight from other GM truck folks, it turned about to be ..... wait for it ..... Rust that was affecting the ABS sensor in the wheel hub.
The surface rust on the wheel hub would expand and lift the sensor too far away from the tone ring inside the hub, and so the ABS system interpreted that lost signal as a wheel locking up, and so the ABS would kick in every time you stepped on the brakes. To be fair, the fix was easy; remove the sensor, plug the hole, grind away the rust, paint the hub, and reinstall the sensor. But seriously, yet another issue with rust on the Chevy.

Soon after, that same hub needed to be replaced. Rust had made its way into the hub bearing from the rust in the sensor hole ... the bearings got debris in them, and started to howl.

 

[ctechbob]

You know what irritates me most about Ford?

They can't for the life of them figure out the simple things. Take driveshafts for example.

My buddy has a 2003 F150 with a 2 piece driveshaft. It bumps and thumps when coming to a stop and taking off.

My 2020 Ranger has a two piece driveshaft.

Unless I take it apart and lube the center splines about every 25,000 miles....it bumps and clunks coming to a stop and taking off.

Why Ford? Why can't you get it right?

I can forgive clunky 10 speed programming and my truck being fitted with an EGR cooler, and direct injection valve buildup. All of that is to play nice with the EPA. But a driveshaft has nothing to do with the EPA, they should be able to get it right.

 

[MSCH]

Certainly diesel trucks make a lot of sense in the right situations. For one thing, if you drive them far enough on an annual basis, the fuel savings can really help offset the expense. And certainly there are loads that simply exceed the capabilities which gassers can haul, so diesel is a must past a certain point.

B

I tried doing the math on the break even point more than once and even using a 10 percent price disadvantage and a 50 percent fuel economy bonus for the diesel the break even point on the diesel was way up there in the 150,000 miles plus range. I didn't even try to factor in the extra costs of maintenance or DEF. I suspect there really isn't a break even cost on the diesel,in the sense of never once repairs start getting factored in

TFL tested a F250 w the 7.3 Gas engine on the Eisenhower pass with a 16000 lb trailer and it performed remarkably..

 

[GON]

Lots of beneficial comments, observations, and thoughts in this thread.

GM's rusty brakes lines, etc are super easy to prevent. This issue is glaring, clearly known, and super easy to prevent for just a few dollars per vehicle on the assembly line. I suspect GM has had over the past decades the same problem Boeing has today- having an accountant as the CEO instead of a seasoned engineer.

What surprised me- which ties directly to this thread- is how, at least visually- a 2023 Chevy truck is compared to its Ford counterpart. I looked at a co workers newly purchased 3/4 ton 2023 Chevy truck. Everything under the hood looked simple and very serviceable. Same visual when looking at the interior/ dash. When I look at a like featured Ford, I can't help but this Ford didn't "Keep It Simple Sam (KISS).

I without question would look strongly at a Chevy 3/4- 1 ton truck if I was in the market for a new truck, even after being an exclusive Ford Truck guy since the 1990s- when I purchased a brand new 1991 Chevy 3/4 ton that has its brake pipes, fuel lines, and trans lines all fail from corrosion at a early stage of its life. The good news was a company sold aftermarket brake lines, etc at substantially better quality than the GM OEM pipe/ lines..... the why- GM seems to KISS its truck design, Ford seems to want to cost cut while adding a lot of breakthrough technology. Makes for unnecessary risk for a truck owner who uses his truck only on occasion, but when it is used it is used towing a heavy load thousands of miles often across mountain ranges.

 

[GON]

I tried doing the math on the break even point more than once and even using a 10 percent price disadvantage and a 50 percent fuel economy bonus for the diesel the break even point on the diesel was way up there in the 150,000 miles plus range. I didn't even try to factor in the extra costs of maintenance or DEF. I suspect there really isn't a break even cost on the diesel,in the sense of never once repairs start getting factored in

TFL tested a F250 w the 7.3 Gas engine on the Eisenhower pass with a 16000 lb trailer and it performed remarkably..

The gas/ diesel is a hard comparison because of the dynamics of fuel pricing. It is a dynamic comparison- never ever static.

I have a 2002 F350 V10 4.33 rear end gasser that towns a enclosed aluminum gooseneck trailer. The truck gets 14 MPG empty. Towing the trailer, 6 MPG. My 2019 6.7L diesel dually can easily get 17 MPG empty, 14 MPG towing a very heavy trailer.

On a 2500 mile cross country transport (move)

At $3.00 USD per gallon for gas, $3.50 per gallon for diesel:
Gas=$1250 USD for the transport
Diesel= $625 USD for the transport

Change the fuel prices to what I paid my last move and could have paid here in Washington state for gas just four months ago with gas at $5.50 per gallon and diesel at $4.25 per gallon"
Gas= $2291 USD for the transport
Diesel=$758

The analysis between "break even" between a gasser and a diesel might be in vain, because using the averages of fuel costs over the life of the vehicle might not really work. Fuel costs change not only based on location, time of the year, price per barrel of oil- but even taxes can be huge part of the mix. In Washington state, their is a .50 per gallon (unverified) carbon offset tax, only charged to gas, not charged to diesel.

One also has to note, buying gas in our local area, we know where to get fuel at the lowest cost. Hauling a trailer cross country, finding competitively prices fuel isn't always feasible.

 

[dnewton3]

Agreed, GON.

The ROI for owning a diesel is dependent upon what region of the country you live, as that affects the fuel pricing. Then there's also the variability of fuel economy due to unique loads one hauls, driving style, annual distances, etc.

Unless I suddenly decided to come out of retirement and run a hot-shot heavy-haul delivery service, there's no way I'd buy a Ford 6.7L engine in a truck these days. The PSD has a fairly good reputation in terms of reliability; way, way better than its predecessors. But the complexity of the compartment just turns me off.

OTOH, maybe all that stuff in the engine bay of the 6.7L PSD is a reason why Ford isn't facing $1.7B in fines and another $325M in remedies, and having to recall 600k trucks like the Cummins diesel emissions scandal .... ? If Ford decided not to cheat, and instead, play by the rules, then maybe that explains, in part, why the Ford seems more complicated?

Cummins Settlement Nationwide Recall Program Overview | US EPA

Overview of the recall program Cummins Inc. will implement for affected Ram 2500 and 3500 diesel trucks under the 2024 EPA settlement with the United States and California.

www.epa.gov

In the end, we all have our favorites and dislikes for reasons which make sense to us as individuals.
I'll likely never buy another GM product based on my horrid experience.
But to be fair, I'm sure there's someone who'll never buy a Ford based on their terrible experience.
Same goes for a Ram.
If you own enough vehicles in one's lifetime, you'll eventually have a good one and bad one from about any brand out there.

One thing I'm not OK with is cheating. I will never buy a Cummins or VW because of their cheating scandals. It's not that I'm an eco-friendly tree-hugger; that's not my thing by any stretch of the imagination. I just think that if you have to cheat to get ahead, then you're really not as good as you claim, because you can't make your product able to play within the rules. Ford and GM have never, to the best of my understanding, flat-out intentionally cheated to claim a product is something it isn't when it comes to vehicle emissions. Sure, they both have produced some bad quality products, but those are not the same as violating federal law. And in some manner, it wasn't just the Feds that Cummins and VW cheated on; they screwed every single customer that trusted their product to be something it ultimately wasn't.